I didn't really understand or feel completely comfortable around kids until I became a father. I still get nervous around other people's kids sometimes, actually. And I get hyper sensitive sometimes if Ruby is having a hard time in public or things aren't going her way and I want to make sure we aren't bothering people around us. This rarely happens as Rubes is a pretty mellow kid.
I have heard, more times than I care to count, otherwise sensitive and intelligent people say "I hate kids."
I've had people in this movement say to me "Why do I have to try and like your kid?" I've seen people in this movement get up and move when a vegan mom sat down next to them with a vegan baby and say something rude. I've had people say to me "I usually hate kids, but yours is cool!" (Uh...thanks?) I've seen people in this movement list "Kids" in their list of "disklikes" right next to meat eaters and smokers. (Oddly, in their "likes" list they will have "vegans." My kid is a vegan. Do you hate her or like her?)
Here is what you need to understand. Children are as nature made them. You dislike them, not for choices they have made (like religion or politics), but for things beyond their control. You "hate" them because they do not act like you and are outside your group. This makes you a bigot.
Bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group...and is intolerant of those who differ.
If you'd like to change your sentence from "I hate kids" to something more accurate, like "I am uncomfortable around children because I do not know any" or "I have had bad experiences with children in the past" please do so now and you are off the hook, sort of.
If you want to stick with the "I hate kids" line, what is the difference between "hating" kids (I keep putting this in quotes because I don't believe people actually hate kids, I just think they are irresponsible with their language.) and "hating" any other group of people for who they are instead of for choices they have made? Like the elderly? Or people of color? Or the differently abled? What exactly is the difference?
The times I confronted people in the animal rights movement with this question who professed to hate kids I got no response. Does anybody know how "hating" kids would be different than "hating" the differently abled or "hating" the elderly? I am willing to be corrected on this because I just called a whole bunch of people bigots and hope I'm wrong.
Here is what I also want people to understand, people who want this movement to grow and for less animals to suffer and die and end up as food, entertainment, clothing, etc:
Vegan children need vegan role models or they will not stay in this movement.
Kids know when they are unwelcomed in a place or situation. If I take Ruby to a vegan event and she gets nasty looks or hears rude comments about children, why would she ever want to hang around that group of people or believe those people's beliefs are kind and something she should try and adopt? If I sit down next to someone at a vegan event and the person next to me gets up and moves to the other side of the table, why would my daughter want to stick around or get involved? If I keep dragging her to events and she keeps feeling shunned and unaccepted, as soon as she is able to go elsewhere, she will. She needs adults, other than her parents, to help her understand these values.
It is our responsibility to create a movement that is inclusive and welcoming and supportive of people already involved and those looking to join us. This includes children. It includes EVERY group of people.
I am not telling you that you have to take my kid to the bathroom. I'm not telling you you have to be all smiles if Ruby loses her cool and throws a fit. I'm not asking you to hold her or teach her to read. I don't need you to babysit some time. If she spills something, don't worry, you don't have to clean it up.
What I'm asking is that you think about your behavior and how it affects this community, the members of it who you might not be the most comfortable with, and by extension, the animals you care so much about.
I'm asking you to understand that some people in this community might require you to take one step outside your comfort zone every once in a while. I want you to know that if you try a little harder and focus on the movement as a whole, instead of yourself, we will all be a little stronger. If Ruby sees smiles and hears the occasional "Hi there" from you, it will go a long way in making her feel accepted in the community she is involved in. And if she feels accepted and supported, she will stick around and become a powerful activist herself one day.
Picture: Ruby at one of her handful of circus protests, living it up despite the cold and rain.
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67 people felt it was time to chime in.:
So well said. Can I print this out and frame it?
As a parent, a teacher, weekend activist and a vegan, (and someone with many aquaintances who swear they "hate" kids...) I wish this was required reading for the masses.
I'm glad you said it Josh...I totally agree with you that our movement is only as strong as our own actions and the modelling of our own behaviour is key to it all.
I like kids. I might hate vegans, though.
I am mega, over the top guilty of "hating" kids. I have unfairly slandered children the world over for almost no justifiable purpose.
I know that kids are products of their upbringing, and my problems mostly lie in the faulty parenting being exercised by the majority of people I encounter.
However, I understand how totally bogus my reasoning is, and I have been trying to increase my tolerance little by little.
What I'm really trying to say is that I appreciate your plea for jerks like me to just get over themselves already.
I promise to try.
Very well said. I don't know many "real life" vegans (as sadly I don't live in Portland!) but I have encountered the "breeder" mentality online a fair bit and it sucks. It can be very aggressive, as you said it would be completely unacceptable were it directed towards other "groups", but "hating" children is fine for some reason. Mad.
Also love that you bike to work, my hubbie does too and the vast majority of people think he's nuts, and that's before they find about about the vegan thing :)
I will gladly take Ruby to pee anytime.
xo
kittee
Very well said. As someone who is still uncomfortable with other peoples kids and has a very mellow kid as well I just don't get all the negativity that I see on people faces when we come to close to them outside our home. I don't care if they don't "like" her but they don't have to treat her like she's the plague or something!
well said.
I've only met one vegan kid, and he was pissy the whole time! Something about teething, like that's an excuse. Vegan kids are jerks!
But seriously, on the flip side, occasionally people think that because I don't have kids, that i'm in the 'hate' boat and i'm not. Only one of my friends right now has a child, and she is one of my favorite people to talk to.
FINE, I will babysit tomorrow night. Jeez, all you had to do was ask.
Some of what the kid-"hating" folks dislike about kids is not the kids' poor upbringing. It's that kids are not just little adults. Kids are (sometimes!) messy. And unreasonable. And difficult to be around.
I say this, and I like kids (and I am nuts about my own).
Kids are who they are. Give them a break. They're still pretty new around here.
Well said. I think that in addition to kids not being 'little adults', there is a stark separation between the lives that adults and children lead. It's really hard for adults and children to become comfortable around each other when there's so much pressure to keep children sequestered. I'm not suggesting bringing the fam along on a bender, but there are plenty of times where kids get left behind, and it's no surprise that they don't learn how to behave in public and around other people. :P
This is an excellent post. Thank you for taking the time to present such a thoughtful case. Hopefully, it'll increase some people's tolerance.
This is one of the most thoughtful essays I've ever read on the subject. I like kids and I never understood people who were mean to them just because of their age. A society that treats children badly will never flourish.
is this why you don't hang around the ppk anymore?
i miss you around there. i'm sorry about all the hateful things people may have said about kids. i don't hate kids. i don't want kids myself, but i don't hate kids. i have eleven nieces and nephews, and i don't hate them.
i just am sorry, i guess.
hey y'all,
thanks for all the kind words and support. i'm not sure where this post came from today, but it's something i've been thinking about for quite a while and dealing with for quite a while.
americanweekends, i gotta admit, i am not always crazy about kids myself and sometimes my own patience wears thin. but i think of those times as opportunities for me to grow a bit too. it's trying, but if we never get out of our comfort zone...
also, i don't expect people to all of a sudden get down on the floor and start wrestling big rubes. she'd actually think you were crazy and want nothing to do with you if you did. but a little smile or a hi how are you or maybe an acknowledgment here and there is plenty.
i feel like this movement is exclusive and elitist enough and i don't see any good coming from being more so in the case of children.
also, parents, i learned a lesson today. 4 date rolls as treats was 3 too many. holy farts!
Very well said. One of the most important people in my life had said to me once, think before you use the word hate. It is a very strong word. People use this word out of context and I do not think focus on what it really means. The affects it can have can be scarring for the one it is geared at. As you stated so well.
I love this post. I don't have any kids. For 30 years I was the youngest person in my entire family, cousins and all, so I have no idea how to act around children or what to say to them- I'm always afraid I'm going to be the one that says the wrong thing that stays with them for life and turns them into axe-murderers, which makes me feel a little bit (okay, a lot) uncomfortable. I know that I'm the one with the problem, not the kiddos, and there's nothing I love more than when a half-pint in tiny overalls wants to play peek-a-boo with me! That's adorable, and I don't think that even I can mess up a kid by playing peek-a-boo. (Can I?) Well-behaved kids are cute, cute, cute. That said, I want to admit that I've said some rude things in the past about "kids" as a whole that I didn't really mean, mostly while being annoyed by bad/loud behaviour in public. I've also said "it's not the kid's fault, it's the parent's" when a kid is screaming the the cereal aisle. I have given more than one parent the old hairy eyeball by the Frosted Flakes for not being able to control his or her kid. And not that any of those people are reading this, but if they are, I'd like to offer an apology. I am sorry for the look of disdain and any blanket statement I may have made about bad parenting. I mean, what do I know? I can't tell the difference between a seven- and an eleven-year-old! I realise now that you can't just toss the cookies into the cart to appease the kid, neither can you just escort him out to the car- that would be even worse in the long run! So, apologies to anyone I may have offended. I'm not going to say that I'm all of a sudden going to open an afternoon daycare, but I promise to do my best not to generalise about kids in the future. Thank you for your excellent post. =)
Thank you, Josh. I will now link to this whenever there is a new "I hate kids" thread.
Great article, I'm also tired of the blatant ignorance shown by some in the vegan community towards those of us with kids. It seems to also crop up alot in anarchist/punk circles as well.
One thing I kinda disagree with you on is where you said "I understand the argument that we should not be breeding because the planet cannot support more humans."
I don't understand this argument largely because there are few facts to support it. We are actually nowhere near the earths carrying capacity and most of the problems attributed to overpopulation are actually down to politics and the inefficiencies of our capitalist system which leads most of us to live grossly irresponsible overly-individualist lifestyles.
I think the solution to these problems are many and varied and may involve all of us changing our lifestyles and politics considerably, switching to veganism being a good start.
However among these solutions I don't count voluntary human extinction and dissing anyone who has kids. In fact since I've had kids I've found it very hard to treat people like this with respect, as if they can stoop to being so uncaring of their fellow humans (parent and child alike) I have to wonder if their whole stance of caring for animals is just a pose, a bulwark to help keep aloft their cooler-than-thou egos.
Becoming a parent has made me realize how much of the vegan and other movements I'm involved in seem so much more centred around a cool youth oriented lifestyle culture than they are around the actual issues at hand or any real effective action or philosophy which can help better the world.
Perhaps we should just rebrand our children as animals and call playgrounds animal sanctuaries and maybe then our cool vegan friends would come around and treat us like people again. But you know I think I'm actually better off without people like that in my life.
Thanks for the great post. This is also something I see often in the Queer community. People who often preach tolerance and love have so much "hate" for the little ones I just don't get it.
This is a great post. I don't hate kids, but they scare me until they're old enough to talk to me. :)
To monkeylogical:
When a population grows exponentially (by a percentage of the original number), the time it takes for the population to double can be calculated (approximately) with the formula 70/n where n is the percentage.*
A modest estimate (you can, and should, investigate this number for yourself) is that the world's population is increasing by 1% per year. Now, 70/1=70, so the world's population can--and probably will--double in 70 years. That means, in our lifetimes, we will see population go from 6.5 billion to 13 billion.
I don't know what the carrying capacity for this planet is, but I can find a rough estimate for the livable surface area of the earth: 55 million square miles. That works out to .004 square miles (roughly 2.6 acres) per person, 70 years from now. Think about that for a second: do all the resources you require fit in 2.6 acres of land? Manufacturing included. Now even as a vegan, I'm not sure I can get all my stuff out of two and a half acres. But that's debatable.
Anyway, as a mathematician by nature and by trade, I felt compelled to add some math to this discussion.
*The number 70 is an estimate for 100*ln(2). I recommend reading up on population models--they're very interesting and very much misunderstood!
And, of course, here's a mathematician who says it a lot better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
virtualcourtney said "A modest estimate (you can, and should, investigate this number for yourself) is that the world's population is increasing by 1% per year"
virtual courtney's remarks and mathematics presume we will always have a positive rate of growth. If this was the case then your maths would be spot on.
However while population is still increasing we actually have a declining rate of growth. 40 years ago it was around 2.2% worldwide, and these days as you mention its down to 1% and has been falling since 1989.
These figures come from the US census bureau whose predictions are based on projecting growth trends rather than taking the figures for a single year and projecting them forward exponentially. If current trends remain prevalent they predict that by 2050 population wil be 9.1bn but growth will fall below the replacement level causing population to actually even out or drop.
Of course alot of this is a guessing game but a simple forward projection of current growth rates is grossly flawed.
There will always be people who have choose to have no children and those of us who choose to have one or two, and we should all respect each others choices as valuable contributions to the community, a sustainable population is the answer. Anyone who preaches (not implying you do courtney) ;-) ) that the only way to go is for everyone to have 15 kids or have none at all are equally fundamentalist and flawed positions to have and equally futile to ultimately bettering our lot in the world.
What *I* don't understand are parents who are completely baffled as to why some people just don't wish to be around kids. Sorry buddy, but not everyone is going to like your child, and I certainly have the right to move if I don't wish to be sitting near her. This doesn't make me a bigot, and I'm quite offended that you would even suggest my dislike is bigotry.
Although a lot of people *say* they "hate kids", I realise what they usually actually *mean* is that they dislike being in their company. They respect them enough to wish no harm upon them. That's me- I don't hate kids per se, I even like them... though in *very* small doses, although I admit I do feel extremely awkward around them (I have social anxiety issues and often struggle being around adults, but it's amplified a zillion times around kids! Even when I *was* a child myself I felt more comfortable around adults than other children.).
If people are actually rude to your daughter in that they make nasty comments or ignore her, I can totally see why you might be annoyed- even if one does feel awkward round kids it doesn't cost to have manners- and I'd never totally ignore a child old enough to talk, I'd always at least say hello- regardless of whether it's good or bad for the movement, it's completely bad manners to do that to anyone, old or young, vegan or omni. (Maybe a kid can still read the awkwardness in my face though, I dunno...)
Even so, I think that equating this to racism is innaccurate. Irresponsible use of language and bad manners in some cases certainly, but kid-"haters" both omni and vegan generally wish no harm on kids. I'd hate to be in the same room as certain animals but it doesn't mean I wish them any harm either, and I think in the vast majority of cases that's where these people are coming from...
Although I agree with your post, there's a little something that kinda ticks me off...
And that is parents taking their kids places they shouldn't be.
Like tiny restaurants where even adults get uncomfortable, because it's too tiny for everyone to get their personal space... If there's kids around, that gets 10 times worse...
Or sales in huge stores. It's hard to get around all the shopping people as it is, but when there's strollers there, it gets painful!
So please...
sweet vegan parents of sweet vegan children, know that there are some places where you simply don't take your children if you have a little respect...
yay for this post josh.
very well said.
-flames
The positive comments here encourage me, after reading the ones(by 2 particular people) over at another blog that linked to this post I've been crying for an hour and was pretty much ready to stop calling myself a vegan. Josh, thanks for having the courage to post this and deal with people's negative responses. Hopefully it will help some people examine their behavior.
to supersaar:
i'm with you. we try very hard to not put ruby in situations where her natural curiosity or energy will become a burden for other folks looking for a certain type of experience, like when dining or whatnot.
Hell, I hate adults. I work in childcare (I'll babysit for you) and my least favorite part are the parents.
I would rather sit in the corner and talk about firetrucks with the five old than fake interest in someone's bad day at work.
to anonymous: " and I'm quite offended that you would even suggest my dislike is bigotry."
i'm sure you don't like that comparison. i am open to hearing you explain how ageism is different than sexism, racism, and discrimination against the differently abled. i started a new thread for you to do so.
This is extremely well thought out writing. As a vegan and a parent, I can appreciate the point of view. I have been on the side of the fence where I was in situations where I didn't want to be around children though, nor did I think they would have enjoyed themselves either.
Kids are really freaking cute.
This was a great post: I have no kids, have no siblings, never babysat, never knew anyone with newborns until now... I'm uncomfortable around children. But I've always understood that it's never been my place to comment, and this discrimination is largely unjustified.
I'm not a vegan, but this is a great post.
I agree. I'm a parent, and would never foist my child on anyone or assume that she's going to be a part of something without a direct invitation. If my daughter throws a tantrum in a public place, I will remove her from the situation as soon as possible.
I make it a point to be conscious/respectful of other people in relation to my child, and am bewildered when people assume my child is a brat because of her age.
How can people be compassionate and concerned about animals, but have difficulty tolerating small humans trying to navigate the whole growing up thing?
I just found your blog from over at ppk. At first I thought it was going to be another bash against kids and thought better of reading it. But I'm glad I decided to check it out. You couldn't have put it any better. I just recently had a daughter last year and I could never understand the sentiment.
Maybe we can't all understand what it's like to be black, white, male, female, old, differently abled or whatever, but we should all have an inkling of what it was like to be a kid and so have some respect for little ones in our society whether you want some or not.
i think the real issue we need to address is the title of your blog because you know josh, you're not that punk.
Nice post, Josh.
Thanks for challenging the vegan community to try and take a different tack when it comes to dealing with kids.
i'm not so involved in the vegan "community" to be aware of this anti-kid bias, as a non breeder i find it kind of funny. as a woman in her 30s i am under scrutiny and suspicion often for being childless; you'll need to excuse my total lack of interest in children, yours or others', i get your point but we all have our own reasons for not being into breeding.
just here to say that i had no idea you had your own blog, where have i been? it's like we don't even know each other anymore.....
Great post. People forget that we were all small at one point. Kids are amazing (and annoying at times), and it is our responsibility as human beings to ensure that the little ones grow up to be responsible, contributing members of society. This doesn't mean that you have to sit next to them at a nice restaurant, but it does mean that you show children the respect and dignity they deserve as humans.
Thank you for posting this, Josh. And I think some people will be miserable regardless of where they are, so if you are shopping with Ruby and someone gets peeved because, heaven forbid, Ruby takes up another foot of walking space in the fucking mall, she's just the excuse and outlet for their already existing anger and issues.
In the non-blogging world, I'm the only vegan I know. I feel so lucky that the people in my community have been so nice to my daughter and almost always respond when she says hi (which is all the time!) and they ask her "How are you?" even though she's only 17 months old (she usually responds by showing them her shoes or meowing or something)! I really appreciate that they extend to her the same courtesies they extend to adults. This shows a great amount of respect and will certainly help in teaching her to respect others as she grows older. Hopefully we can all do our part to perpetuate the cycle of respect.
I don't like kids, I probably like parents even less. I can tolerate them in small doses, but if given two otherwise equal situations, 1 with kids, 1 without, I will opt for the child free scenario. I do know children, some much better behaved than others, but still feel this way. I won't be openly hostile, or even unkind to a child, but I will not go out of my way to make them feel more welcome either.
You say "Here is what you need to understand. Children are as nature made them." and that anyone who doesn't like children is a bigot.
However, you don't seem to throw that term out there for vegans that don't like meat eaters. Meat Eaters are also "as nature made them." We, as humans, have evolved in such a way that proves this (teeth, digestive system, etc.)
One could argue that eating meat, although natural, is still a choice, and being a child is not. However, breeding and bringing a child to these public events is. A meat eater would not expect you to change your behavior because they eat meat, a parent does.
Thank you! This is a stellar post.
In professing that one "hates" children, a person just shows that they utterly lack empathy and hate THEMSELVES. It's not like they sprang as a fully-formed adult from Zeus' skull, for crying out loud.
I never understood why people were often so crass or cruel to kids, they are no different than any other person. They are people. Plain and simple, they have the same needs, the same desires and deserve the same respect as any other person.
Plus Ruby is such a sweetie, I would babysit her any day.
I love kids (except when they scream loudly as if being murdered, but who loves that part?), and especially vegan kids. Most especially Ruby. Until I have a kid of my own. Then most especially that kid.
I'm a bit late to the party, but thank you for this post Josh. I'm a vegan parent of two vegan kids. I've felt the anti-"breeder" attitude in the vegan movement and have always been confused by it. I'm making more vegans! I'm teaching my kids' friends/teachers/coaches about veganism. What's wrong with that. I understand choosing not to have kids, most of my friends have chose not to have kids. But they're not assholes to my kids which is the whole point of this post. I understand not wanting to always be around kids. Heck, if I'm on a date with the husb, I probably don't want to hang around kids either. But I'm not an asshole about it.
Anyway, thank you thank you for this post. It's about time we started talking about inclusiveness in this movement.
Thank you very much for writing this thoughtful post. I’m also a vegan parent and I do wish that my son had more positive vegan role models in his life; aside from his parents and a fantastic aunt and uncle, there aren’t any.
I really appreciate you taking the time to express your opinion on this subject; you are certainly not alone in how you feel. It’s unfortunate that you’ve had to endure so much abhorrent behavior, not just in response to this post, but in all those experiences that encouraged you to write this post. It is hard to deal with the negative comments that come from non-vegans about raising your child vegan, but to endure this negativity from other vegans is depressing.
Thank you also for the herbivore company. When my husband and I visited Portland two years ago, going to the herbivore store was one of the highlights of our trip.
p.s. Bringing Ruby to a circus protest in the rain is damn near heroic, in my opinion.
I'd guess that if we were at a vegan restaurant and I got up and moved away when you and your kid sat next to me, she'd probably think the same thing she did when it happened at the steak house. I can't see why that would make her any more or less likely to be vegan.
I am probably considered a child hater, but the truth is I just have no interest in them and for some reason the general public finds this akin to Hating America or something.
I'd never do anything to harm a kid and would do anything I could to help one, but society expects me to start babbling and cooing when one is around just because it's a kid. Like Bill Maher said, having babies is nothing special - dogs do it all the time. Now, obviously having a baby is very special to the baby's parents, and that is as it should be. Just understand that not everyone will be interested in your child and that does not necessarily translate into hate, just lack of interest.
People who are not interested in kids are not the ones we consider "child haters", the ones who say they hate kids are. If you're not interested then act not interested, don't make rude comments to me or my kids. Common decency is nice. I have never expected people to hold my babies or coo and act like they like them. There is a difference between not being interested in hanging out with kids and being a jerk.
i agree, josh - i don't even really understand why it's okay in our community to hate anyone, when our beliefs and lifestyle is supposedly rooted in compassion and peace. no one is going to stop you from feeling uncomfortable around kids - just as no one is going to stop you feeling uncomfortable around the elderly (not that it makes it right, but you're entitled to your feelings). actually making comments about it and not questioning that discomfort is just a little too ignorant for me to understand, especially in a group i consider to be less ignorant than the general public. after all, childhood is just another part of life, and being uncomfortable about that part just shows a really sad lack of self-knowledge and appreciation.
Here's something to consider - maybe you just noticed the intolerant, judgmental, condescending approach a lot of vegans take towards children (or parents). Maybe these same people are generally intolerant, judgmental, and condescending - and this particular subject is just where such attitudes and behavior intersect with your own lifestyle.
The point being, as a vegetarian who is neither a vegan nor a hipster, I find that no matter where I am, I find the employees at the local health food stores, or vegan restaurants to be generally as aloof and condescending as anyone I meet. Generally.
Moreover, someone touched on the point that hating kids and not wanting to listen to them scream and squeal in an otherwise quiet restaurant, or in a movie (not a children's movie, or course) are two very different things. I realize you said that some people say outright to you that they hate kids. Assuming they say this while they have your kid with you, or knowing that you have a kid - well... see the previous paragraph. These people are, in short, douche-bags, and can't be held to the same standard as other human beings. They are merely looking for some expression of their perceived superiority, and have momentarily found it in this subject.
Finally, I don't enjoy the company of children particularly. I have chosen not to have children, largely out of social responsibility, but I understand that the urge to procreate is quite reasonably difficult to suppress. And of course, better to have intelligent, thoughtful, kind people having children. I don't hate children, they are cute much of the time. There are times when I would like to have one or more myself. I think you identified the the gulf between reasonable and unreasonable people. As long as you are cognizant of how you and your child(ren) affect others - you aren't going to have a conflict with anyone reasonable. We know kids have bad days and bad moments and aren't robots. We fully expect to see and hear them at a park or in a superhero flick. Just not being particularly obnoxious before their oblivious keepers.
Amen, daddy-o, amen.
I'm worried about the reading comprehension of people who are reading this post as "breed or your a bigot." All we're asking is that you stop giving our kids the stink eye.
I like kids plenty. Have tons of little cousins, always babysat, even working full time with families/on family issues right now at the job.
But seriously some parents can be a little oblivious to the rest of the world. Not all, but some. A little; "I choose my choice!!-- now back off!" You know? The childfree, or those without kids (yet) also have opinions and such. Not an excuse for being rude or mean to kids or parents but people do get pretty defensive pretty quickly. Or maybe that's just something you don't know anything about 'till you have one? Not sure.
Does anyone know much about vegans and adoptive parenting btw? Thinking some people around here might know some good blogs or other resources. I feel like I don't see too much about it in my extensive vegan internet travels and it seems like a topic that would have its own specific issues. With my personal experience I know if I have kids (and I'm pretty sure I'd like to) I want to adopt, possibly older kids actually. I don't really know which side of the "breeder" camp that puts me on actually... just pointign to the lameness of that dichotomy perhaps.
Anyway, thanks for an interesting post!
I like kids plenty. Have tons of little cousins, always babysat, even working full time with families/on family issues right now at the job.
But seriously some parents can be a little oblivious to the rest of the world. Not all, but some. A little; "I choose my choice!!-- now back off!" You know? The childfree, or those without kids (yet) also have opinions and such. Not an excuse for being rude or mean to kids or parents but people do get pretty defensive pretty quickly. Or maybe that's just something you don't know anything about 'till you have one? Not sure.
Does anyone know much about vegans and adoptive parenting btw? Thinking some people around here might know some good blogs or other resources. I feel like I don't see too much about it in my extensive vegan internet travels and it seems like a topic that would have its own specific issues. With my personal experience I know if I have kids (and I'm pretty sure I'd like to) I want to adopt, possibly older kids actually. I don't really know which side of the "breeder" camp that puts me on actually... just pointign to the lameness of that dichotomy perhaps.
Anyway, thanks for an interesting post!
Thanks for posting this. I'm a vegan mother of a vegan toddler and I've actually lost friends over my conscious my choice to have a child. I hear at least a couple of snide anti-child comments a week on one of the AR lists I am on, as if you can't be a "real vegan" and have a child. I'm glad to hear from other people experiencing this.
Excellent work. I used to say that I "hated" kids, but then I met one or two that were excellent ambassadors of the species ;)
Now I have one, and it's my job to make him an ambassador too.
I would never have thought of myself as a bigot, but I was - and bigotry is usually born of fear. I was scared of kids, I didn't understand them or feel comfortable around them. Luckily, now I am more comfortable about who *I* am, I am much happier being around kids.
And I want my kid growing up with strong role models too.
Thanks.
I'd also like to chime in and say well said!
I don't have kids, and am not a vegan (yet?). But I'm a member of my neighborhood CSA. One of my favorite things about the CSA is that it is inclusive of families, and a lot of people bring their kids to the pickups. Sometimes this can be kind of annoying, because there are sticky-fingered babies underfoot, OCD 4 year olds picking out tomatoes, wee hands taking what feels like a million years to pile 2 pounds of green beans on the scale. Sometimes I just want to get in, get my veggies, and get out, and a bunch of kids running amok makes that hard.
But on the other hand, I know that these kids are learning about their food and where it comes from. They're excited about vegetables! They're begging their mom for, not a pop tart or a McDonald's happy meal, but an extra carrot to snack on during the walk home! This is the next generation of American eaters, and I know it's really important for them to grow up with find memories of small scale sustainable agriculture, heritage foods, heirloom vegetables, and all the rest. We're going to need them on our team when they grow up, which isn't that far away.
Also, who am I kidding? A three year old chomping into a whole raw zebra tomato is one of the most adorable sights in the world.
Excellent post - I will echo what many have said here already... It's not the kids, it's the bad parenting that sets some of us into "rude" mode. And you're right, it's totally unacceptable.
I've been childless-by-choice for over 30 years... and a veg*an for only a few of those. But I found I was much less "tolerant" of kids before becoming vegan.
Because becoming vegan requires much "inner child work", I found myself re-connecting to the innocence that is what "kids" are all about.
That responsible parents are raising vegan kids is awesome! Teaching kids kindness and compassion is critical to the movement.
My fear and woe however, is seeing the many future "meanies" who are being ill-raised today. Non-vegan kids represent a whole lot of (meat) mouths to feed for tommorrow - which spells doom for the animals and the planet.
The answer has got to be in counter measures - young vegans need to be raising their kids in a welcoming vegan community. Bravo to all vegan parents! I hope that through your child's activities and connection with other parents you might be able to convince more people to raise their kids in such a responsible manner. Good luck!
Well said. We take our kids EVERYWHERE because we are a family. We also believe in showing them the world and at times it can get frustrating dealing with the "looks" or hearing, "ever heard of a babsitter"... "Nope, never had anyone offer to sit on my kids"
Hi there. I get the message of your post, but I still don't like kids. It's not because I don't understand them or have had bad experiences with them, I just find them annoying. I wouldn't ever be purposefully offensive to a parent about it, but I would, if possible, try to situate myself away from children. It's no more wrong for me to dislike being around children than it is for others to like it. It possibly is wrong for us to preach at each other about it, though.
I don't hate kids, but I do have a low tolerance for the extended company of someone else's kids, especially if they are ignoring their children in a social setting. Don't get me wrong, when the kids are rested, occupied or engaged I love em, its when they get tired, or cranky, frantic or loud that I start to get angry. Mostly because they aren't mine and I didn't sign up to be a babysitter that day.
It drives me crazy when I see someone's kids going insane in a store or a restaurant because the parents are ignoring them, or because the kids are in a place they don't want to be. This doesn't always happen, but it happens enough on a day to day basis that you might want to consider how singles feel too. In my experience parents are more oblivious to annoying social behaviour because they see it often enough to be desensitised. The answer to the problem isn't to call the other side bigots for their reaction but to engage them in discourse and try to understand their position.
Josh, you are absolutely right about community and how a community supports or pushes away a child.
I come from a liberal Christian home and extended family -- well, except for some older relatives, but whatever. But I left that faith -- and all religion -- on the steps of the family's fifth church.
Basically, through five churches, I was pretty much shunned and shut out by people because I'm weird. I didn't eat at church pot lucks (I gave up meat when I was 9) and was that brainy kid that wants to talk about very adult things at a very young age. It made people uncomfortable to find out that an elementary school kid was reading college level material, did math for fun, and always suggested museum tours over skiing or swimming for youth group activities.
And yes, people would move away from me when I sat down. People would roll their eyes when they looked at me. Wherever I went, supposedly loving people treated me like shit.
So I left. Not just the brick and mortar building, not just Christianity, but religion all together. Today, religion still is a sore and bitter topic for me.
My parents, who are whole-heartedly invested in their faith, often talk as if they are failures, as if they did something wrong that I left a movement they love. But it was the people who would talk about love and peace and equality in the pulpit and the seats, then treat me like a second class citizen because I was different, who drove me out. And I see vegan establishments that frown upon children, vegans who sneer at children and chide the parents as breeders, and I can't help but think what damage they're doing as they push the child out of veganism.
I read this posting a while ago, and I have to say it has stuck with me. It pops into my head now and then and I have bought it up with different people to discuss. I have a almost 5 month old baby and although I used to be a kid hater I am in a totally different boat now and your post hit home. Thank you!
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