A couple of things: "Kids" is a group that are as nature made them. Just like people of color and the disabled and the elderly. So to "hate" them, is to hate them because of who they are as a group in nature, not because of choices they have been able to make or because of things they can control.
And while individual kids do not remain in that group for long, the group: kids, will always exist, and that is what I'm talking about.
Trolls, I have not been approving your comments. If you want to participate, make a valid point. If you can't or don't want to, I'll keep rejecting your attempts to post. It's a beautiful day out. Go do something constructive instead.
Those who choose to be childfree: You have my full support and love. Those who are simply uncomfortable around kids or have had bad experiences, you also have my full support and understanding. They can be very trying, parents more than anybody I know will own up to that. I am not trying to make you feel bad for not having a natural inclination towards kids and I don't want you to feel like you have to love kids or play with kids. My original post was only asking for common decency towards other members of the vegan community.
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48 people felt it was time to chime in.:
I've read some of the reactions to your post on the PPK blog and I was shocked at the venom in some of the responses. I mean, it's just common decency you're asking for, not a 24/7 babysitter.
I agree with your equating "hating" kids with hating any other social group. It just wouldn't be acceptable to move tables while muttering if an elderly person sat next to you. It was once acceptable to do this to people of colour or indeed women, and those were not exactly some of the proudest moments in history.
I think you'll find that the very people who so enthusiastically distinguish between different forms of bigotry are often the ones who are practicing it happily in their daily lives.
It's something that I've seen in other activist circles as well, some people seem to have a complete and utter blindness to the contradictions in their own behaviour, sad really.
I agree that hating a segment of the population for factors they cannot predict, control or change is a discriminitory function of racism, sexism, speciesism, and ageism.
Most people think of ageism as targeted toward the disabled elderly, or toward individuals who are discriminated against in the workplace not by capability but by perceived 'age'.
I realize that this type of discrimination is different when we are talking about very little kids who actually can't be expected to perform certain tasks, but to treat them differently because they haven't grown fast enough for your liking is an arbitrary discrimination that should be understood as such.
I think my particular sensitivity in this area actually comes from having a mother who treated her children as though normal childhood impulses were something to be ashamed of, and why couldn't we just grow up already?
As a result, my own tolerance of children has taken the same form.
Is that a feeling that I want to impart to another human being? Absolutely not.
Can a child help that they were brought into the world? No.
But can you help that child figure out how not to be an asshole later in life? YES.
If we want the world to fucking shape up already, we have to get 'em while they're young, and you don't get them by excluding, harassing, and belittling them.
I may not be super amped to hang out with kids, but I've stopped treating them as though they should be eradicated from the earth.
Maybe if we take all the energy we have been spending "hating" kids, and used it to teach them respect, kindness and compassion, we wouldn't be in this mess.
right on half pint pixie.
The only differences with saying "I hate kids" from "I hate people of color" and "I hate the disabled" is that a) no one would say the latter two (mostly because people who use the term hate against people of color or differently abled people would use harsher terms) and noone could ever get away with blatantly saying the latter two in activist circles.
The negativity heading your way seems to be that a) some vegans suck at realizing the interconnectedness of oppressions, and b) a lot of vegans seem to be really ageist.
i am not doing so well over here:
http://community.livejournal.com/cf_hardcore/4128627.html
if anybody from that community would like to address what i'm talking about, and can try to not call me a dick or an asshole or a snot, i'd be pleased to hear a coherent defense of ageism. if you want to call me names, i'm not going to be able to approve your comments. and since comments aren't open over there, i'm inviting you to post here.
also, a bunch of the comments refer to me supposedly telling people they need to help me raise my kid, which isn't what i said at all, so please try and respond specifically to what i have said. thanks.
i love that you are 'some hipster in portland' josh...
anyway, what age does a child have to attain that will cause these people's dislike of them to cease? is there some bar mitzvah-like ceremony where the once hated child becomes a non-hated member of society? it's a ridiculous that these people can knowingly and openly proclaim hatred for a wide group of people and fail to acknowledge the parallels between racism or sexism.
you do not have to have kids. no one is telling you that you have to breed. however, writing off a group of people who you have never met (and who you used to be one of!) is simply close minded.
plus, there are people in utah that are having 17 kids that will all vote conservative and eat lots of animals. our team needs to be reloaded with a few new players too.
The folks in the "cf_hardcore" community have clearly not read your post for its actual content. That's not too surprising, coming from that group.
I'm looking forward to any reasonable response that they can come up with, but I won't be holding my breath.
OK, I didn't comment on the first post, because it seemed to be more about asking people to stop behaving like assholes than about whether saying "I hate kids" is defensible. So before I (partially) defend saying "I hate kids," let me say: the behaviour you describe in your earlier post is unacceptable; the people on the other blog you mention in comments here come off as the kind of idiots only found on the internet; and it's at best really hard to say "I hate kids" to a parent without thereby making an asshole of oneself.
With that said, I think that "I hate kids" is more like "I hate cops" than "I hate people of colour." There are (at least) two different things one could mean by "I hate cops," one defensible and one indefensible.
One could mean by "I hate cops" that people who wear badges are inferior, or not deserving of moral consideration, or just somehow bad. This is the indefensible reading of "I hate cops," because cops are people too.
But one could instead mean--and I think this is the more common meaning, and certainly what I mean whenever I say that I hate cops--that one's interaction with cops always freaking suck. It's just bad news when the cops show up. The best I hope for when cops show up is that they go away quickly & quietly. I don't hate them as people, the same way I hate, say, GW Bush; but I don't like being around them. That doesn't mean I don't have the same basic responsibility to be civil to cops that I have with other kinds of people, of course; it just means I really don't want to be around them.
I feel the same way about kids. And I know it's not the kids' fault--it's mine. I just don't know how to interact with them comfortably. When I'm around kids, I do my very best to be nice and not scary (which is how I remember grownup strangers seeming when I was a kid...actually strangers still seem scary); but I'd really rather just not be around kids at all. (But that doesn't mean I'm going to get up from a table where a kid just sat down, or that I won't be friends with anyone who has kids, like someone on the other blog said. That's just stupid.)
I'm sure I have said "I hate kids" in the past, and this is what I meant by it. With that meaning, assuming my audience understands that's what I mean, and assuming my audience isn't a kid or a parent, I don't think it's wrong to say "I hate kids;" at least, it's not as bad as saying "I hate people of colour." But maybe I'm wrong. What do you think?
half pint: i appreciate your participation in all of this very much. i'm a bit shocked by the venom as well. though i am fairly certain most of the venom has been coming from pretty young, idealistic folks who are kinda frustrated and full of, not so much actual hatred, but more pride and unwillingness to consider other peoples opinions. while i want to be mad, i was very much that way. i'm not happy being called a "dick" or an "asshole" but i was probably equally firey.
americanweekend: i hear ya. at some point in time we all stopped valueing family and community and "the village" for pure individualism and i don't think we are better for it. even when we (myself included, absolutely) are not completely comfortable with people not like us, we have refused to think of this diversity as good for our society or community. sometimes this takes the form of racism, sometimes homophobia, sometimes ageism. i hope we all exit comfort for a better community, when we can.
royce: agreed. the negativity coming my way i feel is coming from people who think they can get away with "hating" kids (i still don't believe they do, they just can't give up the fight or accept their wrongness) but if you asked if they were "racist" or "privileged" or "homophobic" they would tell you all the ways they aren't. and would resent you for suggesting it.
my original post came out of a personal exploration of my own unacknowledged bigotry, which i think most people have in the closet somewhere. i'm certainly not going to deny my own unexamined...stuff. my exploration was based on a very uncomfortable situation at an AR conference with a differently abled kid. i'll write a post about this, it deserves it's own. anyhoo, people are very resistant to acknowledge they might have something to learn.
flames: if these people only knew how unhip i am. they would wonder why they bothered with me in the first place.
regarding the age at which people are considered acceptable: i assume it is nobody younger than oneself.
rachael: i am not holding my breathe either. though i am trying to provide a place for them to make a coherent argument. they don't seem interested in my offer, only in calling me a "dick."
on the other hand, childfree folks, i do not hold this community against you. all respect and love from me for your choice.
roger: thank you for your post. i would offer that i do not think of cops and kids the same because cops choose to be cops. kids do not choose to be kids. they also do not often understand what is expected of them, and sometimes, defiantely, they do not care what is proper behavior. they are kids and while i get nervous and anxious and uptight when kids, including my own, act out or get loud in public, part of me wonders what is wrong with me for cringing at absolute joy or fear or sadness? we (adults) have spent our lives finding ways to hide our true emotions and mask what is actually going on with us. kids? they just let it out. while adults sit around sneering, constipated, with ulcers and cancers burning deep within us because we are so repressed. i think we'd probably be better as a whole being as honest as kids, but that would never be considered acceptable would it?
and i get you completely that you don't know how to deal with kids. i don't always either. and like i said, i didn't know any kids before i had one. i also do not always know how to deal with differently abled people or the elderly and that is not wrong. but my responsibility is to be honest and open and communicate if i can. as a parent, if i sat down next to you with my kid and you just couldn't deal with it (in my case, chances are my kid wouldn't care one way or the other that you were there) but if you had big problems being next to her, if you said "hi, i am uncomfortable with kids, i am going to move" i'd, first, offer to introduce you and try to make you comfortable, but if it wasn't your thing, i'd give you a high five for your honesty and wish you the best. and completely accept and understand your situation. i would offer common decency and expect the same, which it sounds like you'd reciprocate.
regarding cops once more: though my experiences have been minimal, i am not a big fan of armed authority. but the difference to me is that cops choose what they do, and often choose to behave badly whereas children are trying to figure out the world and don't have guns. personally, i afford children much more leeway because they are working things out. cops i hold to a very high standard which is often a source of dissapointment for me. anyhoo, i appreciate your thoughts on this but don't feel bad vehemently disagreeing with people who have made a choice (in this case, cops) vs. those who are as nature made them (in this case, kids.)
Josh: Thanks for your reply. I think I agree with almost everything you just said. (The exception is that I'd be a lot more upset with someone who said to me, "I'm getting up & moving because of the kind of person you brought over here.")
I don't mean to make the cop/kid analogy do too much work--obviously, they're different in important ways, including that cops choose to be cops. And I can imagine decent arguments why that choice is just wrong; but I do try to give cops some of the benefit of the doubt when they aren't obviously, immediately abusing their powers, because (1) by and large they come from a really different background from mine and (2) individually, they're in the middle of a system that makes it hard not to be a force of oppression. Being stuck in such a system isn't an excuse for oppressive actions, but it's at least a mitigating factor. Likewise (sort of), when a kid misbehaves, I might get mad at the kid, but less than I would be if someone older did the same thing. The choice cops make to become cops isn't made under the same circumstances under which I decided not to be a cop; the circumstances under which someone's kid decides to start screaming on the bus aren't the same as the ones under which I decide to keep quiet.
Anyway, now I'm just rambling. Like I said, the analogy can't be pushed too far; I guess what I was trying to get across with it is just that saying "I hate kids" doesn't necessarily express actually hating kids. But that's really beside the point of the discussion you've been having--those people over on the other blog sure do seem to actually hate kids, and that's not something I can get behind.
Okay, I'm from the cf-hardcore LJ comm, and having read your disclaimers on this post that you accept childfree people's choices and accept that some of us can feel uncomfortable around children(which contradicts the remark you made in that OP about people putting themselves outside their comfort zone), I'm actually inclined to think you make a few good points on this issue, so I'll add some of my own thoughts... just a shame you didn't add that disclaimer in your OP really- also the ""u" in community" title of your OP was misleading and that I think would be where most people on there got the idea you want others to raise your kid, rather than the content of the post itself, which just called for people to behave respectfully around your child.
The only reason "hating" kids is different from any other form of discrimination is that, in most cases, people do not actually *mean* they hate kids- in most cases they actually they mean they feel uncomfortable around kids.
It has more in common with "I feel nervous of/hate being in the same room as large dogs" than "I hate the disabled". It's poor choice of language more than it is bigotry.
Often people mean they are irritated by bad parenting than blaming the child. ie a kid can't help having poor personal hygeine or being noisy, but the parent should make an effort to not let a dirty child touch people or their food, or tell him or her to to be quiet/remove them from a situation if they are being noisy, rather than just say " but they are just a child!" if anybody complains. People aren't complaining about the child's behaviour- they are aware a child cannot help that- they are complaining about a lack of responsible parenting.
For anyone to say they hate kids within a child's earshot, or to ignore a child who speaks to them is disgusting behaviour IMHO.
FWIW I've read a lot of people on childfree groups say that the reason they claim to "hate kids" is to avoid being bingo-ed with remarks like "you'll be a good parent one day"... a bit of an extreme measure perhaps but it certainly gets the point across and shuts people up!
We childfree people do face a lot of discrimination (and poor choice of language by some does not help our case any! Childfree does not necessarily mean "hates kids" or "VHEMT supporter", it just signifies a personal decision not to have children of our own. I too wish childfree people would stop saying they "hate" kids when in the vast majority of cases, they do not actually mean that literally.
First off, let me just say that I support and understand your choice to parent, and I will trust you are doing a good job.
That being said....
I don't want kids for myself. I have two little brothers, aged twelve and...eight, I believe, and have gotten reprimanded for raising my voice to them on several occasions. Even when they're being, pardon my language, smartasses, running around the house shrieking at the top of their lungs, and generally acting like two-year olds instead of their age. As babies? I couldn't stand 'em. I held them and watched them and, when I was forced to, played with them, but always reluctantly.
I do love my brothers, and hope you won't try to twist my words to the contrary. I would give my life for theirs in a heartbeat. I'm just no good with kids. Because when they're older? I'll be able to have intelligent conversations with them. But not now.
My decision to have children isn't because I "hate" them. It's because I don't have the maternal instinct necessary to be a good mother.
In addition to that, I have been battling depression and a tendency to self-mutilate since I was a freshman in high school. It's not going away anytime soon. I ask you, do you really think I am mentally capable of raising a child? Do you really want a woman who cuts herself and deals with bouts of apathy and hopelessness to shoulder the responsibilities of motherhood?
I think not.
As I have said, I have no problem with parents who have children of their own. I do have problems when said parents - and, in your own defense, people who look down on me for my decision not to reproduce - try to keep me from getting access to sterilization because I'll "change my mind." Um, no, no I'm not, and even if I do that's not their problem.
I hope that's not the case in my situation. I hope I'll be able to get a doctor that will give me an Essure before someone denies me access to BC and then bitches at me when I get pregnant and have an abortion. I want to get sterilized to avoid getting an abortion and dealing with drama from my extremely Roman Catholic family.
...So there you have it. That is why I'm childfree, and why some attitudes attached to it make my blood boil. Your opinion is hardly the worst I've seen, trust me, though I do find it a bit underinformed. I do apologize for rambling and wish you the best.
Just a thought, since I have not been around this behavior, and I agree with most of your points, but have yet to read any form of the following:
We were all 'kids' once, and to those who "hate" kids, were you so vastly different from all of the children who you see today that you were an elite child who caused no problems?
This ties in to adding to your community to make a change in the world. I think you touched upon the fact that someone had to give activists a warm welcome at some point for them to want to continue to be a part of this group. I don't think that they all became vegans at 25 or 30.
It bothers me these days how quickly people want to protect whatever subgroup they support by crying 'racism' if you claim you don't like them.
If I say "I hate jocks" or "Sports fans are assholes", this is not racism. It may not be nice or virtuous, but it isn't racism. It isn't racism because Jocks and sports fans can change their behavior.
Children, likewise, can and *will* change. If you are born black, white, asian or whatever, that will never change. But we are all born children and we all grow up.
Today, if I say "Black people make me uncomfortable" someone will call me a racist or say that my discomfort is born of racism and they would be right. The same is true if I use the word 'disabled', 'gay', 'female' or whatever. These traits can not be changed. (A select few can change the last by surgery but to do so without having the appropriate sense of identity first is futile.)
Being a child, however, is a temporary state. People will dislike you for various reasons every day of your life. Some you control, others you don't and some you won't. That doesn't make every act of dislike against you equivalent to racism.
Furthermore, you will never be denied a medical care, a seat on the bus, housing or many other things simply because you are a child. You will be denied employment because we have laws to prevent you from working for your protection. Those laws end at a date certain, however. The police will not take you into a dark alley and beat you senseless just for being a child, they will stop you for "driving will underage' but, again there are valid constitutional reasons for that that will end at a date certain.
Furthermore, under the law, as a child you do not have the 'right of liberty' of an adult. You have the 'right of custody' which means *someone* either your parents or the state is obligated to take care of you. That care ends on your 18th birthday.
Is this because of some unconstitutional, irrational bigotry against children? No, it is because you are not yet ready, not yet full formed, not yet ripe, not yet mature enough to be expected to carry the full rights, duties and responsibilities of adulthood. But we assume you will be on your 18th birthday. You may be ready sooner or later but we, as a society have to make a guess.
This is very different than making laws about race or gender wherein we assume you will *never* be ready.
So, while it may be crass, stupid, selfish and/or narrowminded to say "I hate children" it is, in no way equivalent to racism or sexism.
Alright, I'll take a crack at this:
First, I would argue that "kids" is less a group than a stage. When people say "I hate kids" or "I hate teenagers" they usually (I'm, of course, projecting) mean that they dislike the behaviors that accompany that stage of human development.
I understand that childfree people are personally attacked for their choices all the time, so they are naturally defensive whenever someone even implies that they should like kids. No one says you have to like kids! And no one is saying that obviously all cf people go around punching babies. It was someone very specifically responding to people being rude to his child. I think that you're so used to being on the defensive that it's hard to not see it as a personal attack.
Full disclosure: I don't have any kids. I have three cats, two dogs, and two foster dogs. I've never even been to Portland and I live in Tennessee where the closest store is a Walmart and a hispter is that thing that holds your gun around your pants.
P.S. I really hate slugs.
kris dove: i was actually very much in agreement with you about people saying they "hate" kids just talking and not really meaning it. then i read the posts from the community you're in and it seems like most of those people either hate everything or are really deeply misanthropic. neither of those helps the animal rights community, which is mostly what i am talking about. we have more elitist, only accept people like me folks already. i've said dumb things like "i hate jocks" before and not REALLY meant it but your little group over there seems to pride itself on going way too far.
either way, i don't hold those people against you or the choice to be childfree. and asking people to step outside their comfort level on behave of a community...is it really asking so much? like i told roger, if you really truly can't sit next to a kid, you can politely say you are uncomfortable and will move and i will appreciate your honesty and wish you the best. but fostering some diversity amongst vegans would benefit us all, truly. and might be worth a very small effort. i'm not telling you you have to deal with a situation you can't deal with, i'm asking you to consider others and your opportunities to accept and learn about them.
if you simply cannot sit next to a child, it seems like you would politely move. which would be great and i would support.
i understand that childfree people face problems (i'm not sure i'd call it discrimination) and i think that is really shitty. in this, you and children are united.
i fully support anybody who chooses to not have kids. i'm sure some of the anger directed at me from the childfree folks is maybe based on people with kids making them feel bad for not wanting them. i have nothing but respect for that decision. based on my recent run ins with your other community, it seems that respect does not go both ways.
caliantrias: yes, children grow up, but the group i am discussing will always be. it is just a changing group of individuals, but the group exists and that is what i am considering here.
the group called children cannot change just like someone's race cannot change. while individual people might get out from under the definition "child" the group still faces the issues i'm talking about. i know that makes it different than race, but i don't think by enough to undercut my argument.
and in terms of people calling things racist bothering you...my experience was that i got annoyed by that too and thought people were overreacting and so forth and then i realized most of the time the person was right and i just didn't want to hear it. i know sometimes people are hypersensitive and mislabel, but i am finding valid and hidden forms of oppression all the time.
If people don't actually "hate" kids, maybe they need a better vocabulary. And yes, I know childfree people get harassed about not having babies, but people with children get harassed for having babies, and having the wrong kind of babies, or raising their kids the wrong way (vegan). People constantly ask me when I'm going to have a boy, because I have two girls. Whatever.
I also work with disabled children, and the comments I hear about them just about kill me. It goes much further than "children should be seen and not heard", there are many who think disabled people and especially disabled children should not be allowed to exist, or at the very least, that they should be locked up. They are people too.
It is interesting to note that if a stroller does not fit in a public place, neither will a wheelchair.
caliantrias--
I feel like the focus on the individual reduces the fact that the group still faces oppression. The fact that an individual is not always a child does would not excuse bigotry: one's religion, ability, and size can change throughout life, but that does not mean that people cannot face bigotry due to their religion, size, and ability.
The fact that children will not be discriminated against for housing (maybe) or medical care (again iffy) doesn't mean that they don't have their own oppressions. (Though children under 18 can get turned away from shelters and children who need medical care can't get it without parental consent.) The fact that children aren't considered full persons until 18 is a sign that they are discriminated against.
Besides the fact that children very obviously have different desires than adults, and those are often oppressed. The fact that our world is set up in such a way to limit children's natural curiosity and kindness is a sign of something wrong.
Josh, as a rather defensive childfree person, I really like your original post and this one as well. Today I was traveling on a train all day, sitting across from children for about five hours total. The first two were fine at first but got restless towards the end of their leg of the trip. While I understood, I didn't want to have to personally tell them "no" or remove them from climbing on me. With only one parent with them, I attempted to be patient, but I'll admit my partner and I spoke under our breath to each other (we live in Denmark currently but both speak English littered with loads of slang). The second child had two parents along and I actually interacted with him pretty happily. It was all about context.
My point is, I've been thinking about your post all weekend and I think it helped me be a little nicer in a very frustrating situation. As I transition into being a vegan (have been a vegetarian for more than half my life), thinking about these kinds of issues in this larger context helps me quite a lot. My veganism stems from wanting to end oppression as a whole, and if me "hating" on kids less moves us forward towards equality, I can take that advice without feeling angry or defensive.
afronautical,
So are you suggesting that we remove age limits on drinking, bars, gun licenses, drivers licenses, getting jobs, etc.? Shall we repeal the 'right of custody'?
Afronautical:
Children are discriminated against every day in situations of housing and medical care. I see it at work and have seen it in my own life.
Sorry, my last comment was directed at more than just Afronautical, I got confused.
I've now been asked to leave, and have left the cf_hardcore community.
@ anonymous- your reasons for wishing to remain childfree are virtually identical to my own, (except for the RC family part.) :)
@ joshivore, I'd say childfree people, particularly working class women like myself, suffer a lot of discrimination.
Just for starters, we constantly get refused sterilisation procedures on the basis we'll change our minds (yet anyone who chooses to have kids is not told they'll regret them... which would surely be far worse!) even if we have health reasons like our reproductive organs cause us to be ill(ie endometriosis, PCOS, menorrhagia, severe PMS etc) or making other forms of contraception unsuitable, we are regarded as either stupid and naive, or cold, evil, unnatural etc by many parents, we do not have the same rights in the workplace to time off, or to refuse overtime, need I go on..? There is a *lot* of hostility towards us just for making a personal choice.
Josh,
I think the difference does undercut your argument significantly.
Here is one of the shorter definitions of sexism;
The belief that one sex (usually the male) is naturally superior to the other and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life.
Now substitute;
The belief that adults are naturally superior to children and should dominate most important areas of political, economic, and social life.
Now if I remember my wording correctly, racism and sexism can both be defined as "the exericse of power by one (race|gender) over another."
Again, substitute - "the exercise of power by adults over children."
I've never met a decent parent who didn't feel that it was necessary to exercise authority and power over their children and that they needed to have their rights limited until such time as the children were mature enough to exercise those rights.
By these definitions, these parents and the whole of US is 'childist'. Racism and sexism are not merely a dislike for another group based on arbitrary criteria. It is action taken against those groups based on that motivation.
So "No kids allowed" *might* be discrimination in certain cases. "I dislike kids" on its own, is not and does not rise to the level of racism or sexism.
Yes, there are many hidden forms of oppression. We are all guilty of it. Every time we limit our field of friends and interaction, we do it. Whose on your list? Nerds? jocks? Republicans? Omnivores?
As a *society*, however, we generally balance each other out and, usually, our better nature prevails. There are other times, however....
hi kris,
thank you for that information and educating me on that. i was unaware and i appreciate the info. i think what you are up against is wrong.
you asked to leave the other community because of something related to this discussion?
jaynepleighn,
You're right and I should have been more careful in my language.
To my knowledge, no emergency room would deny a child care who was brought in unaccompanied if that child needed care. Certainly not on the basis of their age. Once upon a time, ERs did refuse treatment based on race.
miss kris dove, why were you asked to leave cf_hardcore?
Miss Kris Dove:
Your experience is not exclusive to being a childfree person, it is because you are female. Women with children get the same shit. I have terrible side effects from hormonal birth control, but am still pressured to take it because getting pregnant is the most horrible thing that could happen to an unwed woman. I have a friend who got pregnant twice while on hormonal birth control and was still denied a tubal ligation. These are problems of sexism and affect all women. I have never worked anywhere that parents had more of a right to time off or less overtime, but have in fact been denied work at a place that would have otherwise hired me and I have been fired because of childcare issues.
caliantrias- i was asked to leave cf_hardcore for expressing the view that we should be more careful in our choice of words.
jaynepleighn- women who have already had children are given sterilisation procedures free on the NHS in the UK. They can sue for unfair dismissal if they lose their jobs anywhere for taking time off to care for a sick child, although all employers I've been with tend to be sympathetic. Not sure where you're from, but perhaps it's different in your neck of the woods.
caliantrias:
i appreciate your rebuttal of my claim. though i'm still not sure i agree. however, i appreciate your points and most them i see the merit in. i'm still not sure i agree the oppression of kids (which, to me is not based on their not having the full rights of adults) is coming from a completely different place in one's mind and heart than the oppression of any other group who is different or "other." this extends to animals, women, races, etc. but i do see what you're saying about those oppressions playing out differently and not matching up. i guess i'm just not sure that the definition of sexism with kids substituted in not matching up means people who hate kids aren't bigots.
if i talked about how i don't like those loud mexicans and thought they were dirty and said "i hate mexicans!" if you called me a racist and i said "oh, i don't REALLY hate mexicans, but you cannot question my right to say i hate mexicans even though i swear i'm not a racist".....i'm pretty sure i'd still be a racist.
i just went on a long bike ride, i'm not sure i'm making sense here. : )
kris dove:
while i imagine there might be some reasonable people in that community, perhaps you are better off without them.
either way, i appreciate what you've offered to this conversation and promise not to ban you. i also don't hold the assholes i encountered over there against you. i also promise you nobody here will attack you for your personal choices, unless of course they are bigoted or hateful or espouse the view that the red hot chili peppers are a good band.
Nah, they went totally downhill after the Californication album...! :P
There are plenty other, more reasonable childfree communities online- I too am shocked at the vitriolic reaction of some people on that one.
My last thought on this, and I don't mean to drag it out but i think language is a pretty powerful tool and i think denial is too. I also don't think wreckless use of language is the end of the world but I do think we should strive to be sensitive to these things.
So here is something that has occurred to me in this discussion and seems to fit with what some people who disagree with me seem to be saying (i am open to my being wrong on that, but this is how it looks to me)
If I say, when confronted, "Oh, I don't REALLY hate them" it is ok to say:
"I hate kids. They are loud and dirty and I don't like being around them and I don't want to sit next to them."
If I say, when confronted, "Oh, I don't REALLY hate them" it is not ok to say:
"I hate black people. They are loud and dirty and I don't like being around them and I don't want to sit next to them."
The first, or something like it, can be said by people who would never dream of saying the second? Why?
Reading through these comments, the question is popping into my mind: What is the opposite of hate? is it love? or can we substitute "have compassion for"? By entreating a group not to hate another people group, are we thereby asking them to love that people group; or are we asking them to have compassion for that people group? And can we agree that hate is nothing more than judgment and condemnation? Why say it at all?
I think compassion is always a good idea. I am a vegan; I don't particularly like animals. I didn't become a vegan because I like animals--I became a vegan because I have compassion for animals. I do not have to like them to have compassion for them.
To help us out, I have here the definition of compassion: "sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it"
I guess all this is to say I support what josh is saying; it is not ok to say "I hate a people group" without being a bigot, and without totally leaving compassion behind.
Wow...I had quite a bit of reading to catch up on, josh. Your patience is inspiring.
Also, to sum up, you're saying I can hate the Red Hot Chilli Peppers with a passion and still be a good vegan, right?
vegeater: i like what you said a lot. "compassion" as our baseline seems pretty reasonable to me.
i was at a birthday party last night for a 2 year old and there were lots of little kids there. while i have personally gotten pretty good at dealing with kids getting over excited or not understanding personal space issues (i think it's hilarious when a kid i don't know decides it's fine to just sit down in my lap, i do not expect others to be like me) i stepped back and realized, as i sat on the floor surrounded by kids with cake covered faces and hands who were all in different phases of their vegan birthday cake high or crash, that....yeah....this could be a pretty hostile situation to some. : )
so, in line with what you were saying, i don't expect people to get down on that floor with me and be fine in that situation (you need a bath after, so you know) basic compassion for other beings would be plenty. some get it, some prefer to make veganism about themselves.
mel: i don't know if disliking the red hot chili peppers with a passion makes you a bad vegan but it does put you in good company. or bad company, depending on how you feel being on my team.
the thing is, the made a choice to make terrible music and for that we can hate them. but DIO was put on this earth as nature made him, i would argue as a force of nature itself, making the statement "if you hate DIO you are a bigot" absolutely true.
Has anybody read Bill McKibben's "Maybe One: A Case for Smaller Families"? I haven't, but plan to, as it seems it may have some insight for our issues.
Incidentally, my husband and I are considering not having biological children, or maybe having only one. Even though we really like them.
Instead it seems like a compassionate thing to do to fill our home with kids who are already here on earth and don't have a home. Could be hard (and expensive), and we are only at the beginning of thinking about it. But since this is already on my mind, what if someone said "I hate orphans" !?
Josh:
Have you any idea why being anti-child is such a part of the vegan community? (Anti-child being different than simply not having children.) I know that there are plenty of non-vegan childhaters but I don't remember encountering as many of them as I have since I became vegan. There seems to have been a link in some minds between the moral decision to not consume animal products and the decision to not have children.
There was an article about it in VegNews, for the love of heaven.
I dislike people who walk their damn dogs in my yard without cleaning up. Recently, I caught the culprit. She's an older woman, disabled, who walks her small dogs while manipulating crutches.
All it took was some time and understanding. Now my neighbor patrols my yard after he cleans up after his own dog. I could have done a million nasty things to her, including confronting her. Living in a community means that sometimes you extend yourself and try to understand people who are difficult.
Keep the faith, Josh. It's the metal thing I can't forgive.
Josh:
Have you any idea why being anti-child is such a part of the vegan community? (Anti-child being different than simply not having children.) I know that there are plenty of non-vegan childhaters but I don't remember encountering as many of them as I have since I became vegan. There seems to have been a link in some minds between the moral decision to not consume animal products and the decision to not have children.
There was an article about it in VegNews, for the love of heaven.
I dislike people who walk their damn dogs in my yard without cleaning up. Recently, I caught the culprit. She's an older woman, disabled, who walks her small dogs while manipulating crutches.
All it took was some time and understanding. Now my neighbor patrols my yard after he cleans up after his own dog. I could have done a million nasty things to her, including confronting her. Living in a community means that sometimes you extend yourself and try to understand people who are difficult.
Keep the faith, Josh. It's the metal thing I can't forgive.
"If I say, when confronted, "Oh, I don't REALLY hate them" it is ok to say:
"I hate kids. They are loud and dirty and I don't like being around them and I don't want to sit next to them."
If I say, when confronted, "Oh, I don't REALLY hate them" it is not ok to say:
"I hate black people. They are loud and dirty and I don't like being around them and I don't want to sit next to them."
The first, or something like it, can be said by people who would never dream of saying the second? Why?"
Because very young kids(not so much the older ones), by their very nature, can at times be dirty and noisy and unpleasant to be around... someone admitting that is simply being honest, and even a parent will often admit that. Black adults, on the other hand, are no more unpleasant to be around than any other race group.
As I mentioned before, well parented kids can sometimes even be pleasant and cute to be around in small doses, and I would never dream of being rude to any child like the people you described in your previous blog. As loads of people have joked before, the best thing about other people's kids is you can hand them back if they start, well, doing what kids do and can't help doing, before your patience wears thin!
Some people just find normal behavoiur of very young children unpleasant to be around, that's why we choose not to have our own or babysit other people's kids. Not all of us are rude about it. It doesn't mean we are ageist or bigoted or hateful or anything of the sort, it just means we are stating an honest personal preference.
(FWIW I'm surprised that would have needed any explanation and thought it to be fairly obvious.)
That LJ community was insane. I posted a comment, but I have a feeling it may be removed because it contains logic.
I have posted a (very tl;dr- you've been warned!)statement on my livejournal account re all this internet drama at http://wannabealtruist.livejournal.com/91985.html?mode=reply
in the vein of how not all of us childfree people are child-hating bigots. :)
I was offended by the original post because it seemed to imply that not being fond of children somehow contradicts veganism. It also sounded like a frustrated dad who felt like venting in defense of his child, and that is understandable.
Personally, I do not enjoy the company of children. I get very anxious around them, in the same way I get anxious around loud or very spontaneous people. If a person of any age was near me and very boisterous, I would be inclined to move. But just because a kid sits down next to me? No way. I treat them like I would any other person. I will smile and say hi. But if you ask if I want to hold your baby and I say no, please don't get offended. I find it nothing but awkward (and frankly a bit scary). Hanging out with them doesn't appeal to me, but I certainly wish them no harm.
I think a lot of childfree folks such as myself were immediately defensive over what seemed like an attack on our own personal preferences. However, I've seen a lot of good arguments here, and I think I understand your point of view better now, Josh. (I also appreciate that you kept up with the debate and seem to be genuinely interested in what everyone thinks, rather than just attacking them... unlike people on other sites I won't mention.) People shouldn't be mean to Ruby, or any child, or any person at all, really.
We are childless. Are we uncomfortable with children? To be honest, sometimes yes Have we ever been rude - I sincerely hope not.
Living with compassion. Extending compassion to every sentient being, without making *distinctions/qualifiers* towards who recieves that compassion. That's how I want to live my life.
I find that a heart that holds hate in it has low room for holding full compassion.
I have no children and do not plan on having any, but I don't "hate" kids. I really dislike all of the anti-breeding talk in the vegan community, but where would we be without topics to create more in-fighting, eh?
That said, I don't like being around kids. I am very comfortable with children, being the oldest in a large family and having lots of experience. I like being around my nephews, but when it comes to being out in the world, I don't want to be around kids. I choose not to have kids because I love my life the way it is. I admit that I'm too selfish to have a kid because I don't want to change my life. I want to be able to sleep in on the weekends, stay up late, go on spontaneous vacations, only have to pick up after myself, go out in public with my husband where we can hold eachother's hands, not a child's. And so, quite honestly, because I like living in grownup land, I don't want to be around kids. When I'm at a party at a friend's house, I feel disappointed when a kid comes in because I need to monitor my language and keep things child appropriate. And if I'm at a restaurant, I will always pick a table away from the family with kids. I don't think that this is bigoted behavior. Your kid is probably great, but I also won't sit down next to the dude, who is probably a great guy overall, eating a half rack of ribs.
I won't treat a child badly or say that there is something wrong with you having a child and if they try to engage with me, I will respond and smile, but that's probably about it. Do no harm... but I don't feel like there's anything wrong with not wanting to be around kids.
I understand and appreciate your points Josh.
I am continually frustrated by the anti-reproduction people. I think it's a worthless cause that does far more harm than good. It's neither moral nor practical to legislate or promote human population control.
But I'm also continually frustrated by the pro-reproduction people, the (anti-choicers and the anti-feminists). It's neither moral nor practical to legislate or culturally demand that women's bodies be used to make and care for babies.
I can understand some of the anti-kid talk comes from my second point, from women (and some men) who are simply rebelling against the social expectation that they reproduce. Speaking as a women, the pressure to reproduce really is pretty overwhelming. And it's absolutely wrong.
But at the same time, children don't deserve any of this. They don't need to be dragged into the debate and they don't deserve to be anyone's virtual punching bag. People who "hate" kids need to step back for a second and take their anger out on someone or something else. The kids don't deserve it. You're right.
That said, I think it's a bit unfair to make the comparison to POC, disabled persons, or elderly persons because the issues are deeper and in some ways more complex. For example, some women simply can't escape the social expectation that they reproduce without declaring a hatred of children. The 'maternal instinct' assumption simply won't go away unless they 'prove' they hate kids. That's just not the case with other marginalized groups of people and other types of bigots. No one is claiming their own freedom - a rightly earned freedom - by expressing a hatred of people with disabilities. No one is truly rebelling against their own marginalization by hating people of color.
And this is one area where I think (some) men can't really see things the same as (some) women. Men simply aren't as pressured to reproduce as women. The context matters. So, that's my answer to your question, "How is "I hate kids" different than "I hate the disabled" or "I hate people of color.""
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